I was able to see the Dead Sea Scrolls in San Diego on a work trip. The display was incredible.

I can't tell you exactly what has happened here at DAIO, other than saying we get upqards of a dozen spam posts per day. I have always been the only moderator here and I try to keep up with it, but it gets old day after day deleting accounts. I think deputizing some other moderators is a great idea. Let me figure out the best way to do it after the holiday weekend. Thanks to those of you sticking with us through this spam.

Could the lack of participation be post-general assembly fatigue? The amount of spam is off-putting, but how can we do anything about it? I'm willing to volunteer if we need more moderators.

Is it just me, or has something rather horrible happened to daio sometime this summer? We used to have discussions, now we have spam. Did someone kill our four moderators and replace them with marketing people?

This is from Linde Grace. I want to clear up an apprent misapprehension about my article: it is not a work of fiction. This is a real letter I sent to the executive in the Presbytery where I reside, but, of course, for him, I named names. For a general audience, I had to disguise names of individuals and churches. All of this material is actual fact except the names.

Extreme fundamentalists of any religion annoy me.

Only if i get to be in the Presbytery of Really Good Indie Music - Northwest Cluster

If we have a Hominy Presbytery, can I be part of the Presbytery of Biscuits and Gravy?

I'd be happy with Marvin, myself. ;-)

I did a class presentation on the greatest American a few months ago, I chose Mr. Rogers and he won. We should have elected Rogers to Moderator. Maybe we can appoint him imaginary moderator forever?

Yes, but when will the rovers find an Eldil or a Hross?

That is wonderful! There is a Facebook group too: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20148806206

I generally don't keep up with anything that does not have a feed for me to keep up with . . . but it looks pretty good.

I read this a satire, because the issue is never identified and the language is stuff you hear from both (all) sides of controversial decisions: why won't the Presbytery just follow Jesus, the Gospel isn't what we want to hear, we aren't a congregational tradition, woe is me we lack church discipline, etc., etc.... Did I misread it?

She speaks in so many euphemisms that it took me four readings to figure out her point....

Just when i thought it was safe to wash my things and go out into public. Seriously. If i don't want to die a horrible death i need to avoid all plastics, not drink from aluminum cans, stay outside, avoid outside... Better living through chemistry indeed. It seems we'd be better off living in caves and trying not to get stepped on by dinosaurs.

Is it just me, or does it sound like Darth Vader is lurking int the background on this podcast? I think one of the biggest divides in our denomination has to do with the willingness of congregations to have female clergy. It would be interesting to look at the churches that are leaving or members of New Wineskins to see how many of those churches have women on their pastoral staff.

uGGGHEeeugHHHHHhhhfth Augustinian hermeneutic!

I figured Arminius, based on the fact that he died later and was less decayed. Zombie theologians!

Calvin, if for no other reason that he was a lawyer. Also, the Swiss were known for their military prowess.

Would Presbyterian Women put it out? (Ducking and running ....)

Who would win in a fight? Calvin or Arminius?

This made me LOL at work

E-mail pastoring is huge. My pastor and I are conducting an e-mail Bible Study of sorts right now (about blogging of all things). We're able to do it asynchronously, whenever each person is available. Most of my communication with the church staff on routine issues (please schedule a meeting room, have you received the donations for the trip, etc) is done via e-mail now.

We recently adopted a child protection policy. It's relatively simple, no adult alone with a child. This ban is completely inappropriate. Leave it up to the church to decide how to involve sex offenders, the government should stay out of it.

I suppose that, even if this is so, it does not invalidate the experiential need of Jesus' first followers to account for their encounter with the God of Israel in the person of Jesus of Nazareth; and so really the faith is not "threatened" in any sense. If the birth narratives can be "explained" as wanting to make a statement about Jesus' identity in narrative form (and I'm not saying that's all they are -- I'm much more of the Tolkien "myth became history" school of thought), I suppose the resurrection narratives could be the same situation. At the very least, it might make sense for me of our claim that Jesus rose again "on the third day." I've never understood the math on that one. If you count the Jewish days, we have Day 1 as Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and Day 2 as Saturday sundown to Easter sundown, meaning he rose on the second day. If you count the Roman way, he rose on "the third day," but just barely, if you count Friday as Day 1. No math that I've discovered gets you to three full, twenty-four hour days. Paul, of course, gives us the earliest written witness to the resurrection, and his claim "on the third day" does not necessarily have to dovetail with the presumably later gospel narratives. I guess...? I dunno, it's all very interesting.

I abosolutely think youth should be empowered, and that we should support them. Here's what I don't like: tokenism teaching them to go after power in the same sinful ways many adults do using them to prop up outdated committees and programs A strong, well discipled youth, who wants to serve at GA or Presbytery should be included. But we have to remind them, as I have to remind myself, that these entities are intend to serve the mission of God. They are not the mission in and of itself. I think we need a whole lot more people (youth and adults) on the "front lines" and a whole lot less in "management." General Assembly should not be the front line

Drew, What I heard in your comment was a retaliation against the mentality that says "we have to have a youth on our committee," or the "obligatory youth" mentality. It's a bit condescending to just put a youth on the committee without intending to take the youth seriously or to teach them the system so that they can be involved in a meaningful way. I was a "youth elder" serving a 1-year term on the session when I was in high school, and I didn't really get a great overview of the way decisions are made or the way that we see God's involvement or seek His help. So you're right (if I'm hearing you right)--sometimes it seems like a waste. Kitty, Wow! That's really great that the young adults of your church came before the session and that they heard you. God gave you a very positive experience with church government...maybe He's calling you to be involved in the decision-making ministry of the Church? I have one nit to pick with your comment--that the essence of being Presbyterian is service. The essence of being Christian, including Presbyterian, is proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ crucified. Often I have been a part of mission groups that did good works for people, but we failed to share the Gospel. What good are the works when we're denying the gift of faith? Our job is not as much to give clean water and food as it is to proclaim the news of a relationship with God in Jesus Christ. God be with you, Sara

Drew, I'm trying to understand what you mean by this comment. Isn't service the essence of being Presbyterian? We serve on committees in church, we serve in our community. As Presbyterians, we are obligated to serve when asked, and as Presbyterians, we should strive to be as inclusive as possible in the voices in leadership. The leadership of a church is supposed to be representative of the demographic makeup . (For example, see G-9.0104 and G-4.0403 in the Book of Order.) Young adults have just as much to contribute to church direction as older adults. For example, when I was in junior high, the session of the church decided to sell off an adjoining parcel of wooded land next to our church to a developer. The session said that it did not have value to current members. At the congregational meeting, I, along with the other young adult members who had just been confirmed the week before, got up one by one to speak to how it was part of our heritage of playing during Vacation Bible School and Mid-week youth programs. The resolution was soundly defeated, based on our input.

Yeah, if kids want to get involved, I won't stop them, but I am sick of people trying to fill out their committees by inviting youth.

Greg, I'm totally with you--sorry I misunderstood the first comment. The youth do indeed have a tremendous amount of influence. As my husband and I have interviewed with PNCs, we hear time and again that the churches are deathly afraid of losing the young families and the life that youth bring to the church. We're making a mistake when we focus on a lot of issues that don't concern many of the people in the pews--and a lot of what they're concerned about is the aging population of the average congregation. A very worthy concern for us to address. Drew, GA may not be the best way to practice faith, but if the Spirit is leading these kids to seek service there, I wouldn't stand in the way. I think you're making a mistake in teaching the kiddos to dislike and to shy away from those in decision-making positions in the Church. Where better to learn about a world that's sinful and about handling reality with God-reality in mind? You can't protect the kids from sin, and there are a lot of wonderful and spiritual people who happen to be on committees. You may be depriving your kids of meeting some faithful and encouraging people, and you're teaching them that God doesn't dwell and work in all places--only those places you say He does. I'd think twice.

SaraSDrew, So to clarify...I think the youth are waking up to the power and influence they have in shaping the direction of the PC(USA). Not asleep to deep faith or trust in Christ. If youth are asking for input and influence in the life of the congregation, community, and their own lives, I think a good way to get them talking to others in their own congregation and the larger church is to get them to research, pray about, and write an overture of how they believe the larger church should operate, talk to the session, talk to the presbytery, maybe even talk to the GA. My youth are looking for meaning and I think they could get that by dialoging with others outside their group, church, and community. Drew, I do exactly the opposite. I want to "infect" them with the spirit of communal discernment, the spirit of shared leadership, the spirit of partners in ministry outside their community, the spirit of being one voice in the great multitude doing its best to follow God's will. In short, I like the Presbyterian system (I also believe it has its flaws) because I believe it calls us to community, something I believe the youth that I spend everyday with want. Greg

Not to sound like an at all costs Obama apologist, because I am not, but this post from Donklephant perhaps provides some needed nuance/clarification: http://donklephant.com/2008/07/01/obamas-plan-for-faith-based-initiatives/ Also, it all sounds (at first "glance" -- I haven't listened to the speech or read too much about it myself) very consistent with what Obama laid out in his 2006 speech on faith and public life (the one Dobson branded heretical).

The point about government being insufficient to solve all problems is well taken, though. Not sure how I feel about tax dollars going to religious organizations period, but I like the way he's claiming religion for the left. Best I've felt about being a Christian and a Democrat in years.

This move may help Obama with evangelicals, but it's gonna backfire with many of his current supporters.

...and do we really want to send the message that GA is the best way to practice/grow faith? I do my best to keep kids far away from GA, Presbytery, and committees. I do not want to infect them with our virus.

What you didn't get to see is the outcome of the story, how the newly created Youth committee handily defeated these youths' zeal and appeal for opportunities to serve: http://www.pres-outlook.com/blog/Youth-from-Atlanta-Disappointed-with-Assembly-Vote.html ggbolt, I sincerely believe that, if the youth are asleep, it's our fault. Let's challenge them to grow deeper in their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and let's give them work and study that they're asking for!

If I remember correctly, wasn't there some conversation about a young adult moderator at the Inter-generational Peacemaking Conference at Montreat last year? Jon I know you were part of that or at least you were there and we were talking.

I asked my youth if they would like to try to write an overture to the next assembly maybe tweaking the idea a little and checking into the legal stuff. They seemed to be excited. Look out the youth maybe waking up

That's really cool - like in Isaiah, but with more i-pods.

I have often wondered why we haven't yet moved away from the term "Holocaust" to describe what (as I understand it) many Jews would prefer be called the "Shoah," which means "catastrophe" or "annihilation." I don't personally consider those who died a burnt sacrificial offering to God, and I wonder if anyone makes a theological case that the term is appropriate. (Not denying that such a case could be made -- honestly just wondering). Of related interest, comics artist Dave Sim has just published a slim graphic novel entitled "Judenhaas" ("Jew-hatred"), which is a powerful and distubring, illustrated collection of anti-Jewish testimony from across the centuries (http://judenhass.com/main.html). It is the result of his conviction that all artists, whether or not they are Jewish, have some responsibility to reflect and comment on the Holocaust/Shoah.

Fwoosh. I can barely think of anything else to say. -G

Except for the abortion quote, it looks like Mr. Obama's quotes could have come from a Republican. Not only do Mr. Dobson's comments not speak for me, they don't make sense to me.

Ah, that's right -- the marginal numbers. Touche! :-)

Interesting theory. I don't think I'm northern. I grew up in Texas with a Southern father who had the shorter catechism memorized. In all reality- I'm too young to know the difference between the southern and northern churches. I very clearly remember when the new PC(USA) symbol was introduced, but I was 8 years old I think. I don't know which denomination the church I grew up in was a part of before reunion- I assume the southern, but it might have been union (I think the presbytery was). I've tried to learn more about the northern and southern branches, but I do not instinctively know the differences. I do know that the citation number for the BSF is "10". There's nothing more to it than that.

The other problem as well is with the way sex offender laws work - ie someone who was an 18 year old caught having sex with a 17 year old are often treated the same after incarceration as someone who is actually a danger to children and society in general. The laws really are unjust in many cases, and do little to protect - but they tend to make society feel good and vindicative. Also i'm pretty sure churches, at least out here, all have a 2 adult rule.

Do you hail from the old northern branch of the denomination? I am totally guessing here, but my hunch is that "southern Presbyterians," having had only the Westminster standards for so long, might be less inclined to lump them together. (As I recall, they had to fight to keep the Longer Catechism in the Book of Cofnessions.) Just a guess, though. ;-)

And, I should add, I would agree that banning volunteer service "in *any* capacity" is too broad. I suppose one of the larger issues is, is this government interference in religious institutions, and as such is it constitutional? I.E., does the state's interests in this case outweigh the First Amendment protection of religion from government interference?

Well, I can understand the argument against the volunteer ban, but I must say I would be more concerned for the safety of children than the rights of the convicted sex offenders. Maybe that is unjust or unChristian, but there you have it. For sure, I would want my session to have policies in place about no adult (offender or not) ever being left alone with kids. This is hard to enforce (I am alone with the kids in my Sunday school class all the time), especially in smaller membership congregations, but given the litiguous world we live in let alone the real safety concerns, I think policies like that need to be widespread.

Sorry- I count the shorter and larger catechisms together to get to 10 And I agree that we'd all be better off if we spent a little more time with all 10 or 11 of those documents

Amen to that last, Mike!

There are, in fact, 11 confessions in our BoC (Nicene, Apostles; Scots, Heidelberg, Second Helvetic; Westminster Confession and 2 catechisms; Barmen; C67; Brief Statement), and Dr. Ottati is right. The other consideration, though, is: do we need to add a confession that has not had a chance to really shapea and inform the life of our church? Would even a ten year process be enough to determine if it could do that? The reason virtually all of the documents in the book are pre-20th century is that these are documents that have withstood the test of time. This probably sounds like an argument for "older is better," "opposed to any new confessions," but that's not my point at all -- and I realize many of the documents were new to most Presbyterians when the BoC was introduced in 1967, so one has to start somewhere... but given that the book is supposed to be time-tested standards, I don't think we need to be amending it for the sake of being current. I haven't read the South African confession, but I want to and trust it is an incredibly valuable document. But do we add a confession primarily to make a statement about racial equality, geographic diversity, etc? Or do we commend it to the churches and then, maybe decades down the road, we recognize the power it has had to work in our church's life? Canonizing something is no guarantee it will become influential. If anything, it's likely to hasten its placement "on the shelf." My strong bias is that most of us Presbyterians need to learn more about the confessions we already have before adding to them.

Zach, I was with you -- the interview with Carl Mazza was very impressive, and I was sort of pulling for him, too; even though I am not convinced the individual who is moderator matters all that much in the long run. Unfortunately, we are such a small denomination, our "public face" will go largely unnoticed by the world at large.

It frustrates me that none of the media outlets are questioning Dobson about this. His theology is dubious.

Wait, isn't he a psychologist? When did psychologists become biblical scholars?

It might be that the folks who are manning the exhibitionist booths at GA are older because only retired people are able to take time away from their jobs (particularly for lay people) to spend a week plus in San Jose.

"The first four chapters are the good stuff." Amen, Camille! :-) I get so ticked off every time I hear a PC(USA) pastor mocking "the Book" from the pulpit (maybe my experience is atypical -- but I've heard it more than once). So thanks for this comment. It is true. One pastor once talked (from the *pulpit*, I tell you!) about the Book of Order being good bedtime reading. I actually piped up (just about the only time I've done so) to say, "Only depends on which part you read!" Sure, it's got its problems; yes, it is too long (currently, at least) -- but there is, as Camille says, lots of "good stuff" in there!

Salyards does not begin with an L.

I think this won't go well for Dobson. "Dobson said Obama should not be referencing antiquated dietary codes and passages from the Old Testament that are no longer relevant to the teachings of the New Testament." I guess Dobson gets to be the one to decide what is and what is not relevant.

Welcome. And it really was more a collective "yeah, we should totally do that." If i was still an Arminian, i would probably agree, but as a good Calvinist, i would assume that had i not created the Facebook group that God would still have inspired Bruce to do so.

woot! Thanks Jon for starting the young adult mod Facebook group way back when. I'm not sure this would have happened without you doing that.

Outlook announcement: http://pres-outlook.net/ga-2008-news/46-ga-2008/7507-reyes-chow-elected-moderator-of-218th-ga.html

Wouldn't Jesus be proud, salvation for up to 62 people for only $40 a year. Now THAT'S cheap grace.

Actually, that seems like a fair characterization to me. At least in that stream of translations that stem from the KJV (which would include the RSV and NRSV -- maybe the NIV is less guilty of this, it is a tad more "novelistic" in its narrative style anyway).

The Way, The Truth and The Life paper: http://episcopalcafe.com/lead/The%20Way,%20the%20Truth%20and%20the%20Life%20PUBLICATION-1.pdf

I was struck by this sentence: "Most English translations attempt to even out the styles of the different authors in sentence structure and vocabulary" That doesn't strike me as at all accurate, which brings the whole discussion into question, then.

If you go the website, you can get a free chapter. Here is a sample -- John 1:14-18: "The Voice that had been an enigma in the heavens chose to become human and live surrounded by His creations. We have seen Him. Undeniable splendor enveloped Him — the one true Son of God — evidenced in the perfect balance of grace and truth. John, the wanderer who testified of the Voice, introduced Him. “This is the one I’ve been telling you is coming. He is much greater than I because He existed long before me.” Through this man we all receive gifts of grace beyond our imagination. He is the Voice of God. You see, Moses gave us rules to live by, but Jesus the Liberating King offered the gifts of grace and truth which make life worth living. God, unseen until now, is revealed in the Voice, God’s only Son, straight from the Father’s heart."

I think it's fine if it is understood to be a paraphrase, but it sure doesn't sound like a scholarly translation to me. I think I will probably want it for my own library, but, as with "The Message," my hackles will be up if I heard it read from the pulpit as "the lesson for the day." There is a difference between translation and paraphrase, and paraphrases have their very valuable place, but should not be privileged above or even alongside of translations.

I'd be for it. My only question is whether people would use Fridays to run errands, negating the savings on exhaust fumes. Still, the electricity savings at companies would be helpful.

I'm not agin' it, but I *am* curious to know more about the "additional background on setting and characters" part and how that is presented.

Sheesh. Arminians with their "we've seen the list" mentality.

Ridiculous

Jonathan Martin at Politico (from whence this item came) offers an interpretation as to why this was a politically smart thing to do: http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/0608/Obamas_pastor_sitdown.html And, so, oh you foolish pastors -- when will you ever learn that you haven't been called and set apart to be political props or pawns?

I never thought that Steampunk would apply to the Emergent Church. I'm intrigued, and they're coming to my town.... maybe I can get the in-laws to babysit...

They also have a facebook group! http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=12932979509

They are coming to Bend, OR. I am pumped that First Presbyterian in little ole Bend is getting a chance to be a part of this. I am actually leaving GA early so I can come back and participate. I know there are several events in and around San Jose that week but I wanted to see it in my own context (which I think is pretty important to emergents...right?)

This is one of the nicest online prayer/devotional sites I've seen. The music is an especially nice touch, and the elegant and easy interface. I'm glad we Presbys are helping make it possible.

They have a MySpace page! http://www.myspace.com/churchbasementroadshow

Who knew it cost so little to get your lost loved ones to heaven?

I must admit I was relieved when I saw the video was clearly staged for entertainment purposes -- although I suppose the done-in-earnest blessing of the animals every Saint Francis day is not too far removed...

What's next, a canine version of "My Super Sweet Sixteen?" :-)

Wired Magazine's take here: http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/06/service-lets-yo.html I heard them interview the guy on WWDTM, and he sounded serious.....

Let me rephrase. I pray this is a joke!

I wish this was a joke!

Seriously, WTF

This Presbyterian would fall into the category "Christians who think that Barna's categories are too simplistic and patronizing."

So ... is a Presbyterian a "born again" or a Notional Christian?

I have to admit, I wasn't sure whether to categorize this as "Tech" or "Moment of Disorder." I want to acknowledge Wait Wait Don't Tell Me for the tip. (I am not a subscriber.)

That's it! I'm moving to Japan. Their pop culture is so much cooler than ours.

Or, perhaps, merely rolled his eyes.

And then Jesus wept.

Umm.... okay... so the creator says that the world would be a better place without Christianity and Islam. It sounds like that episode of Star Trek:TOS where the Roman Empire never fell. It seems rather contradictory for an atheist, who says there are are no deities, to say that other deities (Ashera? Baal? Marduk?) are better than the Abrahamic religious figures.

Starbucks is temporarily using a chesty version of their mermaid logo.

Which Starbucks scandal are we talking about? Google produces a lot of choices.

I'm willing to take them at their word that they called the best person for the position. I suspect no one would have batted an eye were the whole staff male.

Hm. It's just a blog -- not sure why you're having trouble. You can probably find the story elsewhere with a trusty google search.

I'm glad that they didn't let the need for gender balance prevent them from calling a female senior pastor. I hope that they'll redress the gender imbalance when they call the next Associate.

Can't see it - my corporate firewall blocks skepchick.org as "Nudity".

There *were* a myriad of shapes, some of them mighty small....

Any Presbyterians trying to jump through the eyes of needles? (Can you tell I've been listening to the moderator candidate interviews?) ;-)