Warning - one of the discussion questions is a spoiler.

A $250,000 salary? Wow! That's more than an entire year's budget for many small churches.

This looks very useful. I listened to some of the brief song samples. The ability to transpose keys and print out songs for different instruments seems especially useful.

Both of these committees are interesting to me. The PC(USA) is not the only denomination that uses the Heidelberg Catechism. Why aren't we going to translations translations used by United Reformed Churches in North America or any of the other denominations that use the 3 forms of unity? It seems to me that if a proper translation is what the GA is looking for we should go to a denominations that requires subscription to Heidelberg Catechism and see how they translate it. The committees work could be finished in an afternoon. The second committee on Israel seems more difficult and I pray for them. I am not sure how much if anything the PC(USA) to the can add to this conflict and frankly I believe that it is outside of the denominations expertise.

In a completely unscientific survey of the two adults in our household, the PC(USA) member refuses to use any other toothpaste or toilet paper brand, but might go to another denomination. The Catholic member would not change denominations, and does not consider himself to "even have a toilet paper brand."

Astronomy Cast http://www.podcastdir.net/podcast-description-141.php

I don't know much about Driscoll but the article presented a bleak caricature of Calvin. "But what is new about Driscoll is that he has resurrected a particular strain of fire and brimstone, one that most Americans assume died out with the Puritans: Calvinism, a theology that makes Pat Robertson seem warm and fuzzy." With an objective comment like that you have to wonder about the rest of the article.

This is my reforming the reformed year. I have sworn off Church politics and scandal. I am going to spend this year educating myself.

You are right- I am listening to the daily readings of the Institutes in the same vein. I have no idea what John Calvin actually said, so this is good.

Amid all of the controversy somebody asked me if I was required to subscribe to our confessions if there would be anything that I would scruple. I had to admit that I did not know. I am working on the WCF using "The Reformed Faith" by Robert Shaw. I have been forcing myself to slow down and and read the scripture proofs. This is taking me longer because I end up reading the surrounding verses. Please do not ask how long it took past Chapter 2 sections 1&2.

Thank you, this is wonderful. I started about 4 months ago using Calvin as a devotional by reading 2 sections a day. Now that I have this resource I am thinking about starting over again.

I sincerely wish Christians would stop complaining whenever the secular establishment doesn't prop up our faith, especially these bogus "war on Christmas" things. Jesus said we should expect persecution in the world -- so what the heck is the big deal about no Christmas trees on public property? If I weren't already Christian, silliness like this would be more than enough to make me think twice about ever becoming one. Bah humbug.

The Administrator of the diocese has repudiated the parish priest's remarks. Those remarks have also been removed from the church website. http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/11/diocese-repudia.html

I'll have to ask. I could see them doing it.

Would he be able to "bring back the fro" even if he wanted to? I wouldn't be able to bring back what's missing from my bald spot...

Yeah, those ads really were something, weren't they? Rule #1, when you dig yourself into a hole, don't keep digging.

Living in SE Virginia our local media follows NC politics. I am rarely offended by political adds but the adds that Senator Dole ran were a disgrace. She deserved to loose and did.

We will have to disagree on this one. CBN may be conservative politically but the health and wealth charismatic theology they espouse is far from conservative Protestant orthodoxy. Sadly, I will agree that CBN is what passes for fundamentalism and evangelical today. As I see it this has less to do with the doctrine they present and more to do with a redefinition of these two words. Living in Norfolk, VA I say this as the beneficiary Pat Robertson's ability to change the course of hurricanes away from Hampton Roads. Just kidding about the hurricane thing.

Have your friends considered making children's music? My two-year-old was getting down to it.

Conservative in that they are Christian fundamentalists and political conservatives.

A wonderful find, sadly marred by the politics of Israel.

Why do you call them conservative Christians? I will admit that it has been a long time since I have watched CBN but unless something drastic has changed they are not known as a bastion of Protestant orthodoxy.

I've had Bibles bound in duct tape from too much (?) use... I have several translations, too, and that's not what I object to. Multiple translations are a help in study of the text. It's all the marketing that drives me crazy. Where is the line between "relevancy" and "frivolity" (or filthy lucre, for that matter)? But, yes, I think we are in agreement. The original news item just grated me on a bad day. :-)

I think that we are in total agreement. Niche bibles are of no real use to me. But playing the devils advocate if owning the duct tape bible ( http://www.bibleco.com/the-duct-tape-bible-ncv-silver-paperback.html ) is what it takes to get someone to open the book then I am for it. As for me while I own a gruch of translations I a genuine leather cover is as wild as I get.

I suppose my larger point is -- how many Bibles does the marketplace need? When will Christians say, "Okay, enough already with milking the Bible for money?" Is there still a niche that has not been served with a Bible marketed specifically to its needs?

Ah, the split that splits without splitting. "For years the strength of this denomination has been the existence of both of these schools of theological thought." So, um, how is the denomination going to remain strong when the two "schools" are each sent to their rooms to go play by themselves?

Your correct it is not original writing. I should have said interesting. I am not saying that it is something that I would buy. I just think that it is a neat idea to have a hand written bible. My wife got me a leaf from a 1625 King James bible for fathers day a few years ago. It is not something I need but it is but it is interesting.

But it is *not* going to be a copy of the original writing -- it is just going to be random celebrities and ordinary people writing out their favorite verses. I guess it won't even be a full Bible, just a gift book or something, but still -- we need this why? (Grumble, grumble.)

I think a hand written bible sounds wonderful, even if it is just a copy of the original writing it will still have personality. I mean it is not the Dead Sea Scrolls but it is "original".

I think that you will find that running water is common in many parts of the food service industry. Many ice cream parlors for instance have a special sink for keeping dippers in that use running water to keep them sanitary.

I took a look at the website. Three things struck me immediately. 1) This isn't two synods in one denomination. It's two denominations with a common mission board. The nomenclature has been tinkered with to pander to those who don't favor separation. 2) There is no identification of who the authors are of this proposal, aside from one contact name on the site. A review of the rationale language leads this progressive to assume that it was written entirely by conservatives. There's nothing wrong with that, but I can't see such a solution passing without support during the planning phase from both sides. 3) I think this would be more expensive overall (and in the long term) than an amicable separation. This proposal adds a 5th level to our polity (Primary Synods) and that would increase administrative costs. Also, I believe that this would cause a significant number of congregational schisms, where the vote to affiliate is close to the 60% required. In that case we would be doubling our structure with little collaboration (who is gonna work with those folks on the wrong side?) in a particular geographic area, and one side of the split would need a new church building.

I agree with those who say that if we're going to make it a mouthpiece for the Louisville leadership, it should just be abolished. Perhaps replaced with a Public Relations department. I think it's important to have an independent voice for the church that is recognized as such, but funded by mission dollars. The alternatives are either a PR dept pretending to be independent, or a major loss of press time for the church's accomplishments.

To avoid being a hypocrite, I will need to fix the dripping tub faucet in our bathroom first. I did carefully look at all the faucets today at the locally owned coffee shop that I patronize, and they were off.

Also, I meant to say, there's no reason the GA couldn't call for such a boycott. Take a resolution to your Session and get the ball rolling. Yes, I'm being serious. :-)

Maybe you're on to something. But I paid a dime extra for taco seasoning each time I went to the grocery store to avoid buying the Taco Bell brand, fwiw. ;-)

"the phasing out of the best-selling 'Bible Quest' without a new product line to replace it" If it's best-selling, why are we phasing it out? Other publishers already do faith and film resources. Abingdon Press has LinC, a weekly resource which is not limited to but often does movies; as well as the (late, lamented) Reel-to-Real, still availalble though not current. (We should ask them why it floundered if we are considering a similar line.) The Thoughtful Christian also makes movie study guides available. This would be our third major curriculum overhaul in the past decade. Really? This is the best thing we can find to spend the denomination's money on -- more curriculum?

So if this is true, why doesn't GA tell us to boycott Starbucks along with Taco Bell and Mount Olive pickles? Is it because it's easy to give up eating at Taco Bell, but people will go crazy if deprived of their Starbucks?

Hey Mark, I found your post in facebook. I'm glad that you brought it up. I don't have a lot to add; however, I have a lot to think about.

How many churches send their young elders to presbytery? How many presbyteries have young elders on their committees? I wrote in a Facebook group about the "Rebuilding the Presbyterian Establishment" that discrimination against youth and young adults was wrong. I was told that 1) it is extremely rare for a young person to have sufficient maturity and faith growth to be an elder, and 2) people like me need to stop demanding power and "pay your dues". How can we expect young adults or youth as GA commissioners if that attitude is present in the presbyteries that choose their delegates?

I'd describe it as passionate and a little angry. Which are both appropriate in my opinion. "youth given prominent roles in the church and taken seriously are youth who stay with the church and take their faith seriously in turn. General Assembly has been described as a biennial family reunion. Apparently, our reunion has jettisoned the kids’ table for an “adults only” approach to gathering. The message to our teenagers was clear: come back when you are older." This is an opinion I have been expressing for years. GA commissioners with full vote are selected by formal or informal systems of seniority that discriminate against young adults and especially youth. And by young adult I do not mean someone who is close to 40 (no offense, Bruce). We have numerous elders who are teenagers or in their twenties, and so it is ridiculous that we don't see some of these folks as full voting commissioners.

If they have Stryper's version of Winter Wonderland, then I'm all over it.

In digging around on their website, I found that authors nominate their articles to the website for consideration. Then a committee chooses the top 25 from that list. So, there is the potential that the list might reflect the interests/causes of the committee members.

The Top Censored Stories contained not a word about Israel, Zionism, AIPAC or related stories. Any thoughts as to why?

Mock if you will, but I pre-ordered this a few weeks back. I have to admit, while the gameplay is sort of quirky as compared to the real Guitar Hero, they do manage to capture one of the best parts of the GH Series: the music. Just as classic rock is seeing a revival because of the track list for the GH games, Guitar Praise throws a bone (albeit rather small) to us die-hards. Petra, Whitecross and Bride are a given. But The Crucified? I can't tell you how awesome that is! (If you don't know, The Crucified is basically the first true Christian punk band) They didn't get any play when they were putting out albums and now every youth group kid in America is going to be able to sing 'The Pit'. Beyond awesome! It was always sad to me that most of my seminary friends held their CCM cds at arms length. I guess you have to grow up with it to appreciate it. My hope is that the demand is there to come out with a Christian metal version. Can you imagine headbanging to Stryper, Tourniquet, or Believer in your church? Probably not. But if you could, it would most definately make you run out to buy one!

Well, one person's "shrill" is another person's "forceful," I guess. I thought the tone was appropriate to someone who obviously feels angry and frustrated at what he perceives as shortsightedness on the denomination's part re: youth. Gotta be able to raise one's voice sometime. :-)

I agree with most of the article's points, but I really wish it weren't written in such shrill tones.

Way late, but this is my church. I know several members of the PNC pretty well, and have faith they nominated the best person. The congregational vote was something like 320-11, so I don't think the congregation viewed gender as an issue. On the other hand, I'm puzzled by all the fuss, which is a conversation I've had with three of our four pastors without a really good answer. Lib herself called the decision "bold" which I don't quite get. It seems to me, if the PNC did the job like they're supposed to, Lib would have been the ONLY choice.

Considering what i have been reading, i would assume that one of the time travelers was host to the eight spell, which really, really didn't want to be destroyed. But then again, i'd doubt highly that YHWH created the earth and put it on the backs of four elephants who circle around the back of a giant star turtle.

Easy, they jumped back just prior to the moment of destruction. Don't you guys read science fiction? ;-)

Wormholes. And vastly finite improbabilites.

But how can people travel back in time to 2008 if the earth is going to be destroyed in a year or two? ;-)

Is this new? I'm quite sure that this has been done before, but I don't have the details at hand. Of course, the canonical ordering of the books makes a theological case (just as the ordering of the books in the Tanakh does), so a chronological re-ordering, while perhaps interesting, would undermine that theological argument. Also, will they be organized in order of composition, of the events outlined in them, etc....? Seems like a minorly intriguing but ultimately not that helpful project, in my opinionated opinion. :-)

Yeah, i saw them twice in Seattle. Taking my parents through the exhibit was one of the coolest/geekiest things i did that year.

From the article, "True hospitality requires emancipation of slaves and economic redistribution, so all may find a place to be at home." What does economic redistribution have to do with hospitality?

I was able to see the Dead Sea Scrolls in San Diego on a work trip. The display was incredible.

I can't tell you exactly what has happened here at DAIO, other than saying we get upqards of a dozen spam posts per day. I have always been the only moderator here and I try to keep up with it, but it gets old day after day deleting accounts. I think deputizing some other moderators is a great idea. Let me figure out the best way to do it after the holiday weekend. Thanks to those of you sticking with us through this spam.

Could the lack of participation be post-general assembly fatigue? The amount of spam is off-putting, but how can we do anything about it? I'm willing to volunteer if we need more moderators.

Is it just me, or has something rather horrible happened to daio sometime this summer? We used to have discussions, now we have spam. Did someone kill our four moderators and replace them with marketing people?

This is from Linde Grace. I want to clear up an apprent misapprehension about my article: it is not a work of fiction. This is a real letter I sent to the executive in the Presbytery where I reside, but, of course, for him, I named names. For a general audience, I had to disguise names of individuals and churches. All of this material is actual fact except the names.

Extreme fundamentalists of any religion annoy me.

Only if i get to be in the Presbytery of Really Good Indie Music - Northwest Cluster

If we have a Hominy Presbytery, can I be part of the Presbytery of Biscuits and Gravy?

I'd be happy with Marvin, myself. ;-)

I did a class presentation on the greatest American a few months ago, I chose Mr. Rogers and he won. We should have elected Rogers to Moderator. Maybe we can appoint him imaginary moderator forever?

Yes, but when will the rovers find an Eldil or a Hross?

That is wonderful! There is a Facebook group too: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=20148806206

I generally don't keep up with anything that does not have a feed for me to keep up with . . . but it looks pretty good.

I read this a satire, because the issue is never identified and the language is stuff you hear from both (all) sides of controversial decisions: why won't the Presbytery just follow Jesus, the Gospel isn't what we want to hear, we aren't a congregational tradition, woe is me we lack church discipline, etc., etc.... Did I misread it?

She speaks in so many euphemisms that it took me four readings to figure out her point....

Just when i thought it was safe to wash my things and go out into public. Seriously. If i don't want to die a horrible death i need to avoid all plastics, not drink from aluminum cans, stay outside, avoid outside... Better living through chemistry indeed. It seems we'd be better off living in caves and trying not to get stepped on by dinosaurs.

Is it just me, or does it sound like Darth Vader is lurking int the background on this podcast? I think one of the biggest divides in our denomination has to do with the willingness of congregations to have female clergy. It would be interesting to look at the churches that are leaving or members of New Wineskins to see how many of those churches have women on their pastoral staff.

uGGGHEeeugHHHHHhhhfth Augustinian hermeneutic!

I figured Arminius, based on the fact that he died later and was less decayed. Zombie theologians!

Calvin, if for no other reason that he was a lawyer. Also, the Swiss were known for their military prowess.

Would Presbyterian Women put it out? (Ducking and running ....)

Who would win in a fight? Calvin or Arminius?

This made me LOL at work

E-mail pastoring is huge. My pastor and I are conducting an e-mail Bible Study of sorts right now (about blogging of all things). We're able to do it asynchronously, whenever each person is available. Most of my communication with the church staff on routine issues (please schedule a meeting room, have you received the donations for the trip, etc) is done via e-mail now.

We recently adopted a child protection policy. It's relatively simple, no adult alone with a child. This ban is completely inappropriate. Leave it up to the church to decide how to involve sex offenders, the government should stay out of it.

I suppose that, even if this is so, it does not invalidate the experiential need of Jesus' first followers to account for their encounter with the God of Israel in the person of Jesus of Nazareth; and so really the faith is not "threatened" in any sense. If the birth narratives can be "explained" as wanting to make a statement about Jesus' identity in narrative form (and I'm not saying that's all they are -- I'm much more of the Tolkien "myth became history" school of thought), I suppose the resurrection narratives could be the same situation. At the very least, it might make sense for me of our claim that Jesus rose again "on the third day." I've never understood the math on that one. If you count the Jewish days, we have Day 1 as Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and Day 2 as Saturday sundown to Easter sundown, meaning he rose on the second day. If you count the Roman way, he rose on "the third day," but just barely, if you count Friday as Day 1. No math that I've discovered gets you to three full, twenty-four hour days. Paul, of course, gives us the earliest written witness to the resurrection, and his claim "on the third day" does not necessarily have to dovetail with the presumably later gospel narratives. I guess...? I dunno, it's all very interesting.

I abosolutely think youth should be empowered, and that we should support them. Here's what I don't like: tokenism teaching them to go after power in the same sinful ways many adults do using them to prop up outdated committees and programs A strong, well discipled youth, who wants to serve at GA or Presbytery should be included. But we have to remind them, as I have to remind myself, that these entities are intend to serve the mission of God. They are not the mission in and of itself. I think we need a whole lot more people (youth and adults) on the "front lines" and a whole lot less in "management." General Assembly should not be the front line

Drew, What I heard in your comment was a retaliation against the mentality that says "we have to have a youth on our committee," or the "obligatory youth" mentality. It's a bit condescending to just put a youth on the committee without intending to take the youth seriously or to teach them the system so that they can be involved in a meaningful way. I was a "youth elder" serving a 1-year term on the session when I was in high school, and I didn't really get a great overview of the way decisions are made or the way that we see God's involvement or seek His help. So you're right (if I'm hearing you right)--sometimes it seems like a waste. Kitty, Wow! That's really great that the young adults of your church came before the session and that they heard you. God gave you a very positive experience with church government...maybe He's calling you to be involved in the decision-making ministry of the Church? I have one nit to pick with your comment--that the essence of being Presbyterian is service. The essence of being Christian, including Presbyterian, is proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ crucified. Often I have been a part of mission groups that did good works for people, but we failed to share the Gospel. What good are the works when we're denying the gift of faith? Our job is not as much to give clean water and food as it is to proclaim the news of a relationship with God in Jesus Christ. God be with you, Sara

Drew, I'm trying to understand what you mean by this comment. Isn't service the essence of being Presbyterian? We serve on committees in church, we serve in our community. As Presbyterians, we are obligated to serve when asked, and as Presbyterians, we should strive to be as inclusive as possible in the voices in leadership. The leadership of a church is supposed to be representative of the demographic makeup . (For example, see G-9.0104 and G-4.0403 in the Book of Order.) Young adults have just as much to contribute to church direction as older adults. For example, when I was in junior high, the session of the church decided to sell off an adjoining parcel of wooded land next to our church to a developer. The session said that it did not have value to current members. At the congregational meeting, I, along with the other young adult members who had just been confirmed the week before, got up one by one to speak to how it was part of our heritage of playing during Vacation Bible School and Mid-week youth programs. The resolution was soundly defeated, based on our input.

Yeah, if kids want to get involved, I won't stop them, but I am sick of people trying to fill out their committees by inviting youth.

Greg, I'm totally with you--sorry I misunderstood the first comment. The youth do indeed have a tremendous amount of influence. As my husband and I have interviewed with PNCs, we hear time and again that the churches are deathly afraid of losing the young families and the life that youth bring to the church. We're making a mistake when we focus on a lot of issues that don't concern many of the people in the pews--and a lot of what they're concerned about is the aging population of the average congregation. A very worthy concern for us to address. Drew, GA may not be the best way to practice faith, but if the Spirit is leading these kids to seek service there, I wouldn't stand in the way. I think you're making a mistake in teaching the kiddos to dislike and to shy away from those in decision-making positions in the Church. Where better to learn about a world that's sinful and about handling reality with God-reality in mind? You can't protect the kids from sin, and there are a lot of wonderful and spiritual people who happen to be on committees. You may be depriving your kids of meeting some faithful and encouraging people, and you're teaching them that God doesn't dwell and work in all places--only those places you say He does. I'd think twice.

SaraSDrew, So to clarify...I think the youth are waking up to the power and influence they have in shaping the direction of the PC(USA). Not asleep to deep faith or trust in Christ. If youth are asking for input and influence in the life of the congregation, community, and their own lives, I think a good way to get them talking to others in their own congregation and the larger church is to get them to research, pray about, and write an overture of how they believe the larger church should operate, talk to the session, talk to the presbytery, maybe even talk to the GA. My youth are looking for meaning and I think they could get that by dialoging with others outside their group, church, and community. Drew, I do exactly the opposite. I want to "infect" them with the spirit of communal discernment, the spirit of shared leadership, the spirit of partners in ministry outside their community, the spirit of being one voice in the great multitude doing its best to follow God's will. In short, I like the Presbyterian system (I also believe it has its flaws) because I believe it calls us to community, something I believe the youth that I spend everyday with want. Greg

Not to sound like an at all costs Obama apologist, because I am not, but this post from Donklephant perhaps provides some needed nuance/clarification: http://donklephant.com/2008/07/01/obamas-plan-for-faith-based-initiatives/ Also, it all sounds (at first "glance" -- I haven't listened to the speech or read too much about it myself) very consistent with what Obama laid out in his 2006 speech on faith and public life (the one Dobson branded heretical).

The point about government being insufficient to solve all problems is well taken, though. Not sure how I feel about tax dollars going to religious organizations period, but I like the way he's claiming religion for the left. Best I've felt about being a Christian and a Democrat in years.

This move may help Obama with evangelicals, but it's gonna backfire with many of his current supporters.

...and do we really want to send the message that GA is the best way to practice/grow faith? I do my best to keep kids far away from GA, Presbytery, and committees. I do not want to infect them with our virus.

What you didn't get to see is the outcome of the story, how the newly created Youth committee handily defeated these youths' zeal and appeal for opportunities to serve: http://www.pres-outlook.com/blog/Youth-from-Atlanta-Disappointed-with-Assembly-Vote.html ggbolt, I sincerely believe that, if the youth are asleep, it's our fault. Let's challenge them to grow deeper in their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and let's give them work and study that they're asking for!

If I remember correctly, wasn't there some conversation about a young adult moderator at the Inter-generational Peacemaking Conference at Montreat last year? Jon I know you were part of that or at least you were there and we were talking.

I asked my youth if they would like to try to write an overture to the next assembly maybe tweaking the idea a little and checking into the legal stuff. They seemed to be excited. Look out the youth maybe waking up

That's really cool - like in Isaiah, but with more i-pods.

I have often wondered why we haven't yet moved away from the term "Holocaust" to describe what (as I understand it) many Jews would prefer be called the "Shoah," which means "catastrophe" or "annihilation." I don't personally consider those who died a burnt sacrificial offering to God, and I wonder if anyone makes a theological case that the term is appropriate. (Not denying that such a case could be made -- honestly just wondering). Of related interest, comics artist Dave Sim has just published a slim graphic novel entitled "Judenhaas" ("Jew-hatred"), which is a powerful and distubring, illustrated collection of anti-Jewish testimony from across the centuries (http://judenhass.com/main.html). It is the result of his conviction that all artists, whether or not they are Jewish, have some responsibility to reflect and comment on the Holocaust/Shoah.

Fwoosh. I can barely think of anything else to say. -G

Except for the abortion quote, it looks like Mr. Obama's quotes could have come from a Republican. Not only do Mr. Dobson's comments not speak for me, they don't make sense to me.

Ah, that's right -- the marginal numbers. Touche! :-)

Interesting theory. I don't think I'm northern. I grew up in Texas with a Southern father who had the shorter catechism memorized. In all reality- I'm too young to know the difference between the southern and northern churches. I very clearly remember when the new PC(USA) symbol was introduced, but I was 8 years old I think. I don't know which denomination the church I grew up in was a part of before reunion- I assume the southern, but it might have been union (I think the presbytery was). I've tried to learn more about the northern and southern branches, but I do not instinctively know the differences. I do know that the citation number for the BSF is "10". There's nothing more to it than that.

The other problem as well is with the way sex offender laws work - ie someone who was an 18 year old caught having sex with a 17 year old are often treated the same after incarceration as someone who is actually a danger to children and society in general. The laws really are unjust in many cases, and do little to protect - but they tend to make society feel good and vindicative. Also i'm pretty sure churches, at least out here, all have a 2 adult rule.